So, he was listening to this, or was aware of them or what?

I heard Dingo and think he definitely heard Evolution, because Dingo… [hums the tune]… Da-Da-Da Dee-Daa. Da-Da-Da Daa-Dee. Anyway, I heard “The Coaster” in his Dingo record. Dingo wasn’t the most popular record. Ever heard Dingo by Miles? And he’s got something, Sean, very much like… And I heard…. The thing is, uh, I know for a fact that those cats [Williams, Hancock, and Shorter] did their best work with me. Anything they did after is after the fact. They have done nothing… I haven’t heard anything more creative from Dingo… there’re different chord changes, but there’s not one thing… they did their most creative stuff on that [Some Other Stuff].^[14] You know? And Miles and them, it must have impressed Miles because Miles got the whole band and stayed with ‘em till the end, you know? But, uh, as a matter of fact, somewhere on the Plugged Nickel date, they actually played “The Twins.”^[15] I mean, Wayne started it and then they all got into “The Twins.”

I have to listen for that; I didn’t make that connection.

And I told Cuscuna that and he sent me the Plugged Nickel things and I didn’t hear it.

That was a lot of music. I don’t know. I’m sure you’re right.

I didn’t hear it in what he sent me, but I know I heard it. But I heard it over the radio and they were playing tapes… it could have been the raw tapes. You know what I mean? But I did hear them indicate “The Twins.” But that stuff, uh, I’m in a totally different place now. I hear that instruction now. Like the “Hilda” that you have, when I first played “Hilda” with Marion Brown, I didn’t play it the way…

I love his music too.

Tony played “Hilda” with me to. Man! We used to play “Hilda” and “Blues for Donald Duck” and man, we got some shit out of that was like psychedelic shit! That shit was like [gestures wildly with his hands]. That has never been recorded! I mean, it was recorded on one of those old time things, but never professionally recorded. Let me tell you something, if I ever get a chance, man. People have not heard, they have not heard my music. Because back there I had an opportunity… these were fantastic musicians [referring to the musicians on Evolution and Some Other Stuff] where they copped very quickly… we did everything Bip! Bam! Boom! Bip! Bap! But can you imagine since then where I’ve had time to think and analyze that shit and come up with different shit since then? Man, if I get anywhere near some musicians to do like updated versions of stuff! I believe it’s going to happen, like this trip I’ve got coming up. Hopefully the next couple of gigs I have might blossom into something. Yeah, you know.

What do you think about recognition? I want to know why… I think your music should be better known to jazz people, or people in general. Why do you think your music is not better known?

My uncle [Al Cooper] told me years ago before he passed away. He said, “Grachan, it’s a damn shame when you made those records initially. Those records are classic records. You were so young; you didn’t have any guidance and you were thrown out there and you automatically became competition to your peers.” And so you were out there by yourself and with no guidance and all your peers, most of them got guidance from various sources, like Miles with Herbie Hancock; they got a whole lot of sheltering. Miles protected them in a lot of ways and kept them on the right tracks, and the experience of working with him for so long automatically… put one and one together yourself.

But you know…. It beats the hell out of me. The only thing I can think of, man, this music is maybe not for… maybe it belongs to God… maybe it’s something different. I don’t know. Because I feel great. I’ve realized… I’ve been through so much stuff, man. Ups and downs. I’ve had the most glorious stuff, life in the world, the most beautiful everything, and some of the most ugly shit. And, I’m at a point now where it’s hard to describe. I mean, even though… I’d love to see dealing with Herbie and Wayne and them cats, and I’d like to get that kind of recognition. Then again, I like being able to do what I want to do. You know…

No pressure…

Yeah. I’ve seen what’s happening with them. I’ve seen them recently in the White House, playing [makes a gesture and face to show astonishment]. The last time I saw them on the television at the White House and Wayne was pushing Roy Hargrove up to play, to do all the playing. Like he was ashamed to be there. Like he didn’t want to play. Herbie, they didn’t play nothing but “Watermelon Man” and Herbie put everything in “Watermelon Man” that he knew. I mean, he played so much on “Watermelon Man” like he was playing for his life. And that’s what he had to do. Something didn’t make me envy that.